Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan gave an interview to Petros Ghazaryan today. Below is the full text of the interview.
Petros Ghazaryan – Mr. Prime Minister, much is talked about 3+3 format. The Russian Federation is talking about it, Turkey and Azerbaijan are talking about it as well, they officially agree, Georgia not so much, and Armenia does not have a position yet. What prevents us from taking a stand? What is our attitude to this issue?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan - In fact, two days ago, Armenia, our Government at the level of the Deputy Foreign Minister, expressed a position in this regard, and our position is the following. I would like to emphasize that the regional cooperation is emphasized as a key provision in the Government's Action Plan, we have been interested in all the possibilities of regional cooperation from the very beginning. The issue is in nuances. Our stance is the following, the possible 3+3 format shouldn’t have the kind of items on its agenda which we are already discussing in other formats in agreed terms. In particular, the issue of opening regional communications, the issue of the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, and so on. In other words, if that format brings a new agenda, a mutually acceptable agenda, for example, the study of economic transit opportunities in the region, it can be very interesting, we can be interested in it.
Petros Ghazaryan – So we can say the formula is the following, if there is the Minsk Group, where Artsakh issue is being discussed…
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – If there is an agreed format, the agenda of that format should not be discussed in other formats. Because it may turn out that the 3+3 format is not the only format that we are interested in. And of course, we have expressed and express this position.
Petros Ghazaryan – Let’s move to another issue. Erdoğan announced recently that a discussion has taken place between you and Aliyev and that you have discussed those issues. Has there been any such meeting or not?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Of course, not. See what it all can be about. During this period, you know that we are accepting many diplomatic missions, also contacts are taking place between the Azerbaijani and Armenian officials. In particular, our Foreign Ministers met in New York, there is a trilateral working group, which holds regular meetings, foreign diplomatic missions arrive in Yerevan and Baku. Naturally, they bring messages, they convey messages, and a conversation, a mediated one, yes, it has always happened and it always happens between all countries. There is nothing surprising here.
Petros Ghazaryan – You mean mediated contacts?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Yes, sure. All the direct contacts that have taken place, the public, you all know about them. The rest of the communication is already indirect, in the form of messages, sending messages, which takes place through various channels.
Petros Ghazaryan - Mr. Prime Minister, one year has passed since the ceasefire, our society expects answers to some important questions. What military mistakes did we make? After all, during the war it was obvious that there were, you have stated many times, have we been able to find out the most important, key issues? What criminal cases and culprits are there that resulted in what happened?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – As for the criminal cases, it has already been announced that there are nearly 1000 criminal cases relating to the war. At the moment I can say that there are nearly 40 culprits and there are also detained people. The number of detainees with the army-related cases is approaching one dozen. I think there will be cases that will go to court.
Individual episodes have to be considered, they should also receive a legal assessment, but we must understand that this is only tip of the iceberg. What mistakes have taken place? For example, we have had fundamental problems in army-building. By the way, I think these fundamental problems refer to all of us, the army has, in fact, been inviolable for many years. It is true that there were alarms about the failings and abuses in the army, but usually the authors of those alarms were considered, let’s say, unconstructive, anti-national, etc., but in the end, what happened is the tip side of the iceberg.
How did the army develop for many years, how was the army budget formed and how was that budget spent? These are very important questions that ultimately predetermined the actions on the military stage. The breach between the announcements and the reality, for example, the Security Council is reported that the army is able to keep the front line with the logic of "no step back", but in practice this does not happen. These are issues that need to be studied very seriously, but from a systemic point of view we have to say that we have, in fact, failed the army-building work in the sense that the army must have met the challenges that existed around the Republic of Armenia. And we see the development of defense budgets in Azerbaijan and Armenia. All this, in the end, was reflected in specific areas, in specific positions, with specific phenomena and manifestations. In particular, I would like to mention an important nuance, for example, the work with the reservists. For many years, in fact, the mobilization of reservists in Armenia has not taken place at the proper level. In 2019, we carried out the largest mobilization in the history of Armenia. Even now we continue that logic of the work of the mobilization resource, but we must state that this work had not been done for many years. Why? It’s incomprehensible?
Petros Ghazaryan – Mr. Prime Minister, how do you assess the combat readiness of our army, considering the blows we received and how do you assess our arsenal, let’s say the replenishment of the losses? In what situation are we now?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – I would not like to provide much details about that topic. I have to say that our army is at a reforms stage. And we are determined to carry out those reforms aimed at establishing a professional army in the Republic of Armenia, the main essence of which is based exclusively on the defense logic. We have stated in the Government's Action Plan that Armenia does not intend to carry out any military attack. The Armed Forces of the Republic of Armenia must adequately defend the territory of the Republic of Armenia and borders from possible aggression. This is our goal.
Petros Ghazaryan - The opposition criticizes the program of your government, and the ideology you proclaim - the agenda of peace. They say, look, if the neighbors increase their military expenditure, they do not change the rhetoric, they want to snatch something more from you, and you are talking about peace, it is like saying do whatever you want, just do not hit us. And it is a defeatist thinking, when they want to oppress you, you say, let's live in peace. It is a non-working model leading Armenia to nowhere. What’s your comment?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – We have developed our agenda in the following way – opening an era of peaceful development for the Republic of Armenia and the region. This agenda is not about preaching peace when we are attacked. I already said that the reforms of the Armed Forces and the army and endowing it with proper defense capabilities are among our priorities and we will continue to go that way.
But, on the other hand, it is a very important political direction to create a favorable environment around Armenia, as I have said before, to try to overcome the atmosphere of hostility, because the deeper the atmosphere of hostility, it will eventually lead to cataclysms. This is obvious: trying to control the atmosphere of hostility is a very important agenda which we must push forward. What does it mean?
We should try to establish cooperation in the areas where it is possible. This is particularly about the opening of regional communications. And where cooperation is impossible, we should try to keep hostility and hostile atmosphere under control and try to create maximally favorable atmosphere around the Republic of Armenia and Artsakh, trying to make our positions more comprehensible and acceible for the international community and the regional countries. This is a direction that we have to push forward. I reiterate, this does not mean, the peace agenda is not about preaching peace when we are under attack. The peace agenda is about trying to open an era of peaceful development for Armenia and the region.
Petros Ghazaryan – Mr. Prime Minister, you are in the process, your hand is on the pulse. Do you think those channels will be opened in the future or not? It seems to me that any TV viewer who is sitting now says, in the end, will they open or not?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – The roads or the peace era?
Petros Ghazaryan – They are interconnected.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – The problem is just there, that we say era of peaceful development, but we all know that it cannot depend only on us. It is very important what positions the potential beneficiaries will have, because this agenda also depends on their position. We are trying to do just that, to make this agenda not only for the Republic of Armenia, but also for the other countries of the region, to make it the agenda of the international community, from the point of view of their policy pursued in the South Caucasus. We must, for example, understand that achievements can be the result of work, that is, results come from work. The question is whether we want to work in that direction or not. If everything was guaranteed ...
Petros Ghazaryan – We would sit down and wait.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Of course, look, we would not sit down and wait, because there would be no need to wait, the guarantee would start to work. The entire issue is here. Are we going to make efforts in that direction or not? And this does not mean we must forget about the agenda of the defense capability of Armenia or any other agenda.
Petros Ghazaryan – If I am not mistaken, the opposition will organize a rally tomorrow, on November 8, and they have one agenda. That is not to allow to surrender Artsakh and come closer to Turkey, “No to Turkization” is their slogan. Mr. Prime Minister, how would you comment?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – We have clearly expressed our position. This is absolutely groundless agenda that has nothing in common with the reality. What does it mean “not to be turkified”?
Petros Ghazaryan – Probably that you want normal relations with Turkey.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – I am sorry, but very many of the potential participants of that same rally had the agenda of improving relations with Turkey when they were in power. They made attempts, steps in that direction. Does this mean that at that time they pursued the policy of turkification? Development of relations with Turkey has always been on the agenda of Armenia.
As for Nagorno-Karabakh, we have clearly stated our position, we have recorded it in the Government's Action Plan, I said that we see the settlement of the Nagorno- Karabakh conflict through the format of the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs, with the content proposed by them. I would like to remind you that after November 9, 2020, the Co-Chairs issued a statement, recording the need to immediately resume the negotiation process on the basis of well-known principles and elements.
Petros Ghazaryan – Mr. Prime Minister, one of our most painful issues is the return of prisoners of war. What perspective do you see here?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan - We must work tirelessly for the quick return of our brothers. And we do so. Work is being done on this direction every day. Yes, we must state that this work is being done despite the trilateral declaration of November 9, 2020, and we must work with our international partners, the international community, and we must work with Azerbaijan so that this problem can be solved as soon as possible.
Petros Ghazaryan – The media wrote, then denied then again wrote. Is there any meeting scheduled on November 9? Yes or no? And if there is, what’s the agenda?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan - I can say that at this moment there is no agreement to hold a meeting on November 9. During the previous question and answer session, the Minister of Foreign Affairs said from the parliamentary tribune that there are many ideas and proposals. We have said that we are not against meetings, but the context of those meetings, the symbolism of those meetings, the potential result expected from those statements are very important.
I will tell you the following: wherever we can register any result, we will not decline any meeting, but we are not in favor of holding meetings as an end in itself. Regarding November 9 in particular, I can say that there is no such agreement at the moment.
Petros Ghazaryan - When will a National Assembly commission be set up to investigate the causes and results of the war? You probably know that the opposition has stated that if the proportionality is violated there, and if the extra-parliamentary forces come, they may boycott and not participate.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – But why?
Petros Ghazaryan – Because the power balance will be violated.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Are we talking about power balance here or revealing the truth? Finally, there will be a substantive discussion, where no one can forbid anyone else to express his opinion. And if there is a forgery, point out that forgery and prove the existence of that forgery.
The next question about when the commission will be set up. In fact, here is why the commission has not ben set up so far.
Petros Ghazaryan – Why?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – For a very simple reason. First of all, the commission is created in practice, because according to the law on "National Assembly Rules of Procedure", the role of the commission of inquiry in the security sphere will be performed by the same parliamentary commission on security and defense. This means the commission already exists. Why hasn't it been created yet? Because, first of all, not all of the opposition MPs have applied and received permission to deal with state top secret materials. There is a procedure provided by law for that, and most of the materials will be discussed there in strict secrecy regime.
Secondly, you know that we have an agreement that the extra-parliamentary forces must be involved, the representatives of the relatives of the victims and the missing must be involved. According to the current law, there is no such procedure for directly including into a commission. And now options are being considered on how to involve them, with their consent, because the balance you mentioned, in fact, cannot be violated, because the committee acts in accordance with the "National Assembly Rules of Procedure" law, where decisions are made according to the "National Assembly Rules of Procedure" law. If we are talking about balance, one way or another, the Government has a majority there in any case.
Petros Ghazaryan - But the atmosphere is important, because the names that are circulated, Samvel Babayan, Davit Sanasaryan, Norayr Norikyan, they are, let’s say, more or less anti-opposition.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – How did those names emerge? You know that there is a format of extra-parliamentary forces. The issue was raised in that format, I said that we have a political decision to include representatives, please, decide who they are. They suggested that there should be 3 representatives, without mentioning names, I said we have no problem, I suggested that they should elect 3 people. A voting took place, 3 people were elected. In other words, according to the agreement, we must ensure the involvement of extra-parliamentary forces.
But one way or another, the balance in the commission cannot be violated, because we cannot grant people with the status of an MP. Yes, they will fully participate in the work of the commission, and they will be free to express views, opinions, ask questions. But now look, here is the problem. According to the law on "National Assembly Rules of Procedure", the commission of inquiry must operate for 6 months, it can be extended for another 6 months. Now we do not want to spend these 6 months on these purely technical procedural issues. In other words, we want to complete these procedural issues, and the commission, from the first day of its de jure existence, will deal with the main topic, in order to maintain that 6-month period.
Of course, theoretically we can make an amendment to the law on "National Assembly Rules of Procedure", extend it, but it is also important that the term of activity of that commission should not be unlimited, because you said that the public expects answers. I must say that I am personally very interested in hearing those answers, and I expect that not only the military, the episodes of the war should be examined, which is also very important. The issue of army building, which I mentioned, must also be examined. I want the commission to finally answer one question. For example, I say that after 2018, when I was elected Prime Minister, there was not a single case when the army said we need this, and we say, you know what, there is no money for it. There was not a single case.
And you know, the so much speculated Su-30SMs are the brightest proof of that. The army said, we need it. Moreover, this is very important. I received a few writs saying you should not get it and etc. I put my signature under those writs, I said, you know what, there is a professional body, discuss, give an answer, finally, is it necessary or not? They discussed and gave a written answer that yes, it is necessary. I said if it’s necessary, we will purchase them. I want the commission of inquiry to answer that question. I want, I expect, I think the public also, the commission of inquiry to study the negotiation process, the whole negotiation process, starting from the 1994 ceasefire, after the victory.
Petros Ghazaryan – Why?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan - Because if we do not study it, we cannot understand what happened. After all, what happened? It is very important for me that the situation over the negotiation process we inherited in 2018 should be recorded. And it does not even matter how we inherited it. What happened in the negotiation process? Because if we do not go deeper, we cannot understand what happened.
Petros Ghazaryan – The opposition expects that your actions will be discussed with the same strictness.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Who says the opposite? Let them first discuss our actions with all severity, there is no problem, who is against it? And the signal that we can boycott, first of all, is that they refuse to take part in the investigation of our own actions, in the strictest way, because they know very well what will happen as a result of that investigation. In the end, they say secret, secret, but, in fact, there is not much secret, there is some secret in the details, because a lot has been said publicly, and they have shaped that content. And why do they deny when in the fall of 2017 the number one negotiator of Armenia said that we are ready to surrender the 7 regions, but Azerbaijan puts forward new demands every time. Let's find out what happened.
Petros Ghazaryan – One more nuance. Has the issue over those Su-30SMs been solved?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – What do you mean?
Petros Ghazaryan – Do we continue to develop it or not?
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Of course, we should continue.
Petros Ghazaryan – Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister.
Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan – Thank you. I would like to add 1-2 sentences. November 9 marks the first anniversary, I want to bow in front of all our martyrs, all our victims, offer my condolences to the families of the victims and I want to convey my words of solidarity to the families of our captive brothers and they should never doubt that we make all possible efforts every day for their return, and there are no doubts that they will all return.
Petros Ghazaryan – Thank you. Dear TV viewers, our guest was Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, or rather we were hosted by him. We discussed the November 9 declaration, all the domestic and foreign policy issues in post-November 9 period. We will continue to follow the processes closely. Goodbye.
